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Why the ERLC is so weak on abortion

The Ethics and Religious Liberty of the Southern Baptist Convention is the political arm and supposedly a pro-life organization. Yet the elites of the Southern Baptist Convention consistently opposed taking meaningful positions on the issue of abortion, with the ERLC being chief among them.

On the big day for the convention, the Southern Baptist Convention passed the “Evangelicals For Biden Resolution” which defends the Hyde Amendment. However, Bill Ascol, the brother of Tom Ascol of Founders Ministries, successfully managed to overrule the Resolutions Committee to debate his resolution on the abolition of abortion, in what was the only meaningful conservative win that day.

On the 16th, they debated the resolution that called for legislation that would ban all abortion. It’s worth noting that the Resolutions Committee rejected this proposal believed that their resolution on the Hyde Amendment was sufficient. The two who spoke in opposition to the amendment were first a seminary professor who talked down on the supporters of the resolution and second a stooge in the ERLC.

The man from the supposedly pro-life organization argued against calling for the immediate abolition of abortion because he wanted to celebrate incremental measures. In his closing remarks he championed protecting the Hyde Amendment and ending (only) partial birth abortion (this may have been a gaffe) before championing Missouri as the first state to become abortion free. Note: Missouri accomplished this by targeting the providers, not by incrementally dropping abortion from 35 weeks to 20 weeks etc.

The resolution would be amended and passed. The Southern Baptist Convention would take it’s strongest stance yet on abortion, in spite of efforts to undermine the faithful messengers.

It’s important to recognize that there is a game going on. Pro-life activists believe they are saving lives. And many prominent groups want to gatekeep on what strategies are acceptable ie March For Life and National Right To Life. The ERLC is likewise trying to lecture you about how pro-life activism should be done at the legislative level. This is likened to a political justifying why they can’t do their jobs to their voters. There are deep red state, like Oklahoma, where abortion abolition efforts are killed by Republicans who would much rather campaign on the issue than solve it. In a state like Maryland, obviously take what you can get, but in much of where the SBC is located their is no excuse for the soft stance the ERLC has always taken on abortion, let alone the glorified blog writing articles about how we shouldn’t preach against abortion from the pulpits.

Part of what makes this elitism is that they believe they know better simply because they work for Big Eva. But in being unwilling to take a firm stand, they are then unable to call politicians to account for killing meaningful abortion legislation. And thus the ERLC is perhaps the most ineffective pro-life organization that exists.

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48 Responses

  1. This is a great example of why I oppose Southern Baptists. NO religious organization needs an office like ERLC. None.

    Our job as a Christian is not to change the wicked world to conform to Christian beliefs. The devil is too smart for that.

    CHRISTIANS are not to get abortions. What the world does, we have NO CONTROL over that.

    1 Corinthians 5:12-13
    What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside.

    Our job is to change hearts and minds, by introducing Jesus to an INDIVIDUAL, one by one, and EXPLAIN, and PERSUADE an individuals mind as to why abortion is wrong.

    But other than DEMANDING that abortion should be outlawed, is there anyone that can actually say WHY, without scaring people away from Christianity?

    I don’t think so.

    Why?

    Because most Christians have NO CONCEPT of WHY life begins at conception. They can surely say it, but they have no clue as to why. They don’t have a concept of SPIRIT, as part of the equation to “LIFE”, nor do they know what spirits are, nor do they know when spirits were CREATED. About all they acknowledge is when we die, we go to one of two places, and our body returns to dust.

    Hebrews 12:9
    …Father of spirits…

    We can’t get on our soapbox and DEMAND that abortion be outlawed. The public don’t give two hoots on what our demands are. To them, abortion is nothing more than birth control. In addition, they “generally” do not acknowledge an existance to God to begin with, and they use the excuse of science, in that a fetus is not a person.

    If you tell a child to NOT PLAY WITH MATCHES, what’s that child gonna do? Play with matches.

    Romans 5:20
    The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

    Until they acknowledge that there is a God that created them personally (LONG BEFORE THEY WERE CONCEIVED AND BORN), all the public is gonna do is demand our silence, and to isolate in our little box of a church building. And this is why we have ENEMIES of the world.

    Yes, it would be nice if we were in a position like we were when this nation was founded, where everyone was a Christian, who came from the Church of England, and abortion was NEVER in anyone’s mind, because it wasn’t something that people did in those days. Same with all the gay stuff, or trans stuff. Our founding fathers would be outraged if they knew what was going on today in our society. This is not how they envisioned America.

    However, we are supposed to DO GOOD WORKS, and have a GOOD REPUTATION with the EVIL WICKED WORLD. But as it turns out, we are a laughing stock to the world, because we are HYPOCRITES. The things we demand, are often times things that we do ourselves.

    Romans 2:23-24 ESV
    You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

    1 Peter 2:12 (NIV)
    Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

    1 Timothy 3:7 (NIV)
    He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

    Luke 16:8 (EASY TO READ VERSION)
    Later, the master told the dishonest manager that he had done a smart thing. Yes, worldly people are smarter in their business with each other than spiritual people are.

    A FINAL NOTE:

    The SPIRIT of an aborted baby STILL EXISTS, with GOD IN HEAVEN. The only thing is, that spirit was not afforded the opportunity to EXPERIENCE life (in a dying body) here on earth.

    However, it is MY BELIEF that that particular spirit will indeed be in a different body at some point when someone elses egg is fertilized. I may be wrong in that conclusion, and if so, that spirit is WITH GOD regardless, who never experienced sin.

    Christians need to delve into the SPIRIT aspect of who we are, and until that time, they will never be able to understand, or explain, or persuade the wicked world to conform to our demands.

    Christians are to live by certain standards, and if abortion is evil to a Christian, then Christians are not to abort a child. The wicked world is gonna do what the wicked world does, regardless of our demands.

    It would be great of laws were changed, but if a lot of the country laughs at Christians for their beliefs, ERLC is just blowing in the wind.

    Ed Chapman

    1. bluecat57,

      Your first link states:
      “Abortion is wrong because it’s a baby and it’s always wrong to intentionally kill a baby and that’s because children are made in God’s image and God said, “Do not kill the innocent.””

      At least I know you are not a Calvinist. According to them, no one is innocent, INCLUDING the unborn.

      1. And so starts the debate.
        https://kgov.com/calvinism-makes-God-the-author-of-sin
        I haven’t given TULIP much thought since I graduated from Biola in 1980.
        I have been listening to podcasts and authors with various views on Calvin
        The point of abortion being wrong in all cases is that for a secular law to be enforceable it needs to be universally applied.
        Start there. Then in a death or life situation you “deliver” the baby and make an effort to save it. Naturally, many can not be saved, but not saving is much different than intentionally killing.
        That is a short summary.

        1. Complete agreement.

          There is a blog for non-Calvinists, who have transitioined from Calvinism that I frequent. Not so much lately, as I’ve been busy working.

          But therein lies another problem. No matter how you slice it, you still have “reform” on both sides, with only slight variations of major topics.

          I comment strictly for noting that I have never been a Calvinist, or a “reform”, so I have a different take on both sides of their arguments.

          One thing that they both have in common is:
          “FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW AND GENTILE”

          Me, I beg to differ!

          The blog is:
          https://soteriology101.com/

          1. And yet another rabbit hole to go down.
            1. What is the difference?
            DeMar has been pointing out in recent podcasts that the FIRST Christians were ALL Jews. Differentiating between Jew and Gentle is done by Dispensationalists. (I’m a 1980 graduate of Biola College.)

            2. I “discovered” a Postmillennial Worldview (there is a WP Blog by that name by Ken Gentry) not too long ago. Well, probably 15 years ago. I’ve pretty much rejected Dispensational predictions as complete and utter failures and based on false interpretations of the Bible..
            3. I’ve been listening to Bob Enyart (RSR .org and a great podcast on science topics.)
            4. I read and listen to Gary DeMar of American Vision, partial-preterist, Postmillennialist but hinting at a slightly different take on it. Not sure what it is. He hasn’t seemed to finalize his position just yet.
            5. Now the confusion. I’m pretty sure that Gentry is Calvinist and the other two are not, but I don’t listen close enough to tell.
            6. As for “Reform”. I tried to get approved for a Reformed blog but was rejected. Yet I probably would line up closely with most Reformed doctrine.
            7. I took a “Which Religion Are You?” quiz and came up Orthodox Quaker. Ironic since I grew up in Whittier, CA, a Quaker founded city. What put me over the edge was a question about being a pacifist. My ethnic background are conscientious objectors, but I would have probably joined the Coast Guard if my parents weren’t opposed. Age-wise I didn’t need to register for the draft. I am not a pacifist, but that is how I had to answer the question asked. War is a last resort, but I’m thinking three-strikes and we nuke you. (Or at least whack you on the nose with a VERY big rolled up newspaper.)

            “The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally – not a 20 percent traitor.” (I always thought “enemy” not traitor, but close enough.)
            — Ronald Reagan

            Thanks for the link.

          2. bluecat57,

            I am dispensational…I wrote why here:
            https://chapmaned24.wordpress.com/2017/10/24/70-weeks/

            Any other view negates out Zionism, and I’m all about Zionism!!

            There are many problems with others, as I point out in my post.

            But the argument about Jews vs. Gentiles is a HUGE one, because the Jews HAD to crucify Jesus. Had they known who their savior was, Jesus would have lived to a ripe old age, and if that were the case, prophesy would not have come true, and no one would be saved. The Jews are blinded by God, not due to anything that they did or didn’t do.

            Gentiles are NOT blind.

            Two verses just as an example:

            Jews:
            Deuteronomy 29:4
            Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

            Gentiles:
            Romans 15:21
            But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

            Now, THINK OF THE STORY OF JOSEPH AND HIS BROTHERS, and make that PROPHESY of Jesus and the Jews.

            One day, Jesus will REVEAL himself to his BRETHREN, the Jews, and FORGIVE them, giving them mercy for what God put them through.

            Hence Romans 11, but really, Romans 9-11.

            You see, Calvinism takes what was meant for the Jews only, BLINDNESS NEEDING REGENERATION, and makes a doctrine out of it for all of mankind.

            They need to SEPARATE Jews and Gentiles here, beginning with the Children of Jacob, who got the Law of Moses.

            Remember, Abraham didn’t have the law of Moses! The law of Moses is about SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS, where one EARNS their way to eternal life, and if successful at it, then God OWES THEM their wage for WORKING for it.

            But as God has shown, FOR ALL HAVE SINNED in the law, so their wage is DEATH. But God will give those he blinded with MERCY.

            John 9:39-41 King James Version
            39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

            40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

            41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

            This relates to Romans 11 again.

            So yes, there is a difference between Jew and Gentile…BUT there is no difference between Jew and Gentile that are “IN CHRIST”, meaning, Christians already.

            Christians need to understand the WHY Jews reject Jesus, but Christians are too arogant to understand, so they think that all they gotta do is to evangelize the Jews.

            The Catholics has a history of HATING the Jews for “murdereing” Jesus. Peter tried to stop Jesus from getting to that cross by cutting off an ear of a soldier, but Jesus rebuked Peter, because the mission of Jesus was to get to that cross.

            A number of years ago, an ex-pope wrote a book forgiving the Jews…AS IF JESUS DIDN’T DO THAT ALREADY.

            Gotta love them stupid Catholics!

            Ed Chapman

          3. Prophecy fulfilled (by AD 70) is more powerful than failed predictions (Dispensationalism).
            In just my lifetime I have witnessed dozens d failed Dispensationist predictions.
            Read a book or two. One by DeMar and one by Gentry. They have some shorter one’s. I’m happy to offer recommendations.
            The evidence that 70 AD fulfilled Bible prophecy is overwhelming.

          4. There was no prophesy fulfilled in 70ad. That’s my point. A Jew must walk into that temple proclaiming he’s God. Jesus was a Jew, and the Jews KNOW that their Messiah is a Jew, therefore, some dude from Rome does not fit the description of a Jew! First of all, he’s not cut! Second, the Jews know that their savior is THE SON OF DAVID…a Jew.

            Check out the link I provided!

            Ed Chapman

          5. You need to read something other than Dispensational fiction.
            And Jesus said and is all that.
            Maybe you just need to read a Bible.

          6. I have news for you. I don’t read ANY BOOKS about dispensational stuff. I only study one book, the bible. I researched every aspect of it, and the 6th seal is a MAJOR focal point. NO ONE has seen the 6th seal yet, and Jesus said that that generation will not pass away until ALL those LISTED be fulfilled. Sorry, but the 6th seal has yet to happen, THEREFORE, making your 70AD claim invalid.

            Therefore, there must be a temple built. Like I said, it’s all about Zionism.

            Ed Chapman

          7. By the way, I don’t read books about other people’s conclusions, except to debate against them. I studied the bible for my conclusions. My creed must come from me, not someone else. So when I see in a church all of the “WE BELIEVE” statements, I’m like, OK, HOW did they come to the WE conclusion here?

          8. Ok. Maybe you need to study logic, English and hermeutics. Or maybe Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.
            Which translation are you reading?

          9. Why do I need to study any of those things when translators already did that work for me? All I gotta do is READ and do a CONNECT THE DOTS with the 6th Seal!

            Ed Chapman

          10. I’m pretty stricked on using the KJV, exclusively. It’s for a reason, tho. Not because someone demands it. It’s personal preference.

          11. Well, I can’t bring light to a closed mind. If you are not willing to learn, then not even the Holy Spirit can teach.
            The translators of the KJV were woefully ignorant of pretty much everything. The had very limited knowledge of Biblical languages and even less of Biblical archeology and history which enables accurate translation.
            More recent translations are light years ahead of the KJV for accuracy.
            But you don’t seem to care about facts. God doesn’t care about your feelings when you ignore the facts that the Holy Spirit reveals.

          12. If I’m not willing to learn? You accuse me of what you are guilty of…a closed mind. Yep, my mind is closed, but so is yours.

            But that’s OK, tho, cuz I’ll be dead long before any of this stuff happens anyway.

            Ed Chapman

          13. No, I’m still learning, but facts do not change. Once you learn a fact you do not need to learn it again.

          14. you are right, and I learned the fax about the 6th seal, and NO ONE has seen the sixth seal yet. I have no idea how you have determined from your history and archeology lessons that the 6th seal has taken place.

            But then again, I’ve heard people say the darndest things in religion, like the story of the rich man and Lazarus being a parable! Or the one where Jesus tells Caesar how to run his govenment thru taxes to feed the poor.

            Ed

          15. How did you learn the “facts” about the 6th seal if you do not read anything but the Bible since you accept no one’s conclusions either?

          16. It’s all explained in my blog post, in that I focus on WHO wrote the book of Revelation. The Apostle John, whose PRIMARY mission as an apostle is to the Jews.

            Then I determined from Daniel the 3.5 days.

            Then I looked at Peter again, in the book of Acts, AFTER I read and STUDIED each chapter of the book of Revelation.

            There are 3 “WOE’s” in the book of Revelation. I isolated each one. All three of those “woe’s” is withing the 7th Seal.

            I then looked at seals 1-6, and then saw what Jesus said of the WARNINGS of END TIMES, and saw that his details of SEAL NUMBER 6 matches Revelation Chapter 6.

            I then took another look at Peter’s mentioning of SPEAKING IN TONGUES in the book of Acts after the Jews had received the Holy Spirit, and that coordinates with Revelation chapter 7 when the UNBELIEVING JEWS get “sealed” with the Holy Spirit, in that they, too, will be speaking in tongues. This is RIGHT AFTER the 6th Seal.

            Then since Peter mentions the Sixth Seal, referencing the book of Joel, I went back and read about what Joel had to say on the subject.

            Conclusion, Christians are NOT going thru the 7th Seal at all. There will be ANOTHER Rapture during the 7th Seal prior to Armegeddon for the NEW CONVERTS. I believe that is chapter 14 if I’m not mistaken. Then Armegeddon is chapter 16.

            The rapture that most see is when John is told “Come Up Hither”. I disagree. I see the rapture RIGHT AFTER the 144000 Jews get the Holy Spirit, which is right after the 6th Seal.

            After we are gone in the rapture, THEN the 7th Seal can be opened, and let the games begin with the 3 (THREE), COUNT THEM, “woe’s” that is within the 7th Seal.

            It’s so simple that you don’t need a college degree to figure it out.

            Ed Chapman

          17. I’ve heard it all before and none of it makes common sense; therefore, you lack common sense.

            Common sense tells us that YOU can NOT interpret the symbolism of the Bible without some historical knowledge.

            Common sense tells us that you must be using sources other than the Bible to support your fantasy.

            Common sense indicates that trying to interpret figurative literature as something that will be manifested “literally” makes no common sense.

            Revelation 1:1 King James Version
            1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and sign ified it by his angel unto his servant John

            The first verse of Revelation tells us it is a book of “signs” not necessarily literal events, though some of the signs are literal events, but not all. We have earthquakes daily, total solar eclipses regularly, and blood moons routinely. And “stars” is often used figuratively as are those other signs in Rev. 6:12, 13.

            “Conclusion, Christians are NOT going thru the 7th Seal at all.” Amazingly, I agree with that since Christians were instructed to flee Jerusalem BEFORE its 70 AD destruction. See, if you don’t study history, then you can not know if any of the signs and prophecies have ALREADY been fulfilled. Common sense teaches us that.

            Well, looky ‘dat:
            “this has certainly been true in the past. For example, there was a solar eclipse on Nisan 1 in 70 AD. Later that year, the Romans attacked Jerusalem and completely destroyed the Temple.
            What makes all of this even more interesting is the fact that the solar eclipse on March 20th falls right in the middle of the blood moon tetrad, and it also happens to fall during the Shmitah (Sabbatical) year.”

            Apparently, HIStory shows that the SIGNS of Rev. 6 took place in 70 AD. Of course, I wouldn’t want to confuse you with FACTS.

            You are not rightly dividing the Word of God. You are proof-texting your own fantasy.

          18. I have no idea why you say that it doesn’t make common sense. It makes perfect sense.

            Jesus said that the generation that sees ALL THESE THINGS (seals 1-6) will not perish until all has been accomplished.

            And I keep harping on seal #6 for a reason, because NO ONE has seen or lived thru seal number 6, and since that is the case, NO ONE has seen the DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE, either.

            You keep defaulting to 70 AD, and to you, ALL SEALS have been broken and accomplished.

            The problem with that is, in your scenario, a GENTILE went into the temple, NOT A JEW.

            The Jews are looking for a Christ, A JEW. That negates out Rome altogether!

            And that is your sticking point…ROME!

            My sticking point is JEW. The anti-Christ is a JEW, not some Gentile dude from Rome.

            Now, how does that not make sense to you?

            Ed Chapman

          19. Common sense suggests that YOU have NOT seen seals 1 to 5 therefore YOU are reading other people’s conclusions.
            You are trying to fit modern headlines in to fulfilled Biblical prophecy.
            If you would bother to read any history you will KNOW that Dispensational predictions have been wrong for at least 150 or so years.
            Why are you so stuck on listening to man’s failed teachings?

          20. No, I don’t read other people’s concusions. I believe in a rapture, like MOST Christians do. However, I disagree with MOST of those, as to WHEN. And that is where I began my study, and when concluded, I figured out that NO ONE is going anywhere until AFTER the 144000 Jews get SEALED with the Holy Spirit. And the rapture is IMMEDIATELY AFTER that. Immediately.

            They say that the rapture is at “Come Up Hither” in Revelation 4:1, PRIOR to any of the seals being opened. So most don’t think we will go thru ANY of the seals at all.

            But my study shows that we will indeed go thru seals 1-6, but NOT 7. And why? RAPTURE is prior to Seal # 7 opening!

            Ed Chapman.

          21. Well, you are a liar. You did not come up with your fantasy by only reading the KJV Bible. In fact, you admit to reading other people’s conclusions since you “disagree” with them.
            Have you read the book of Acts? I’m pretty sure far more that 144,000 Jews were sealed with the Holy Spirit in just the first couple of years after Jesus’ ascension into Heaven.
            Revelation 4:1 is specifically directed at John alone. If you doubt me, check the Greek.
            Most people believe BIG government is the answer.
            That America is racist. Heck, that everything is racist.
            Most Jews in Christ’s time believed he was NOT their Messiah. Even today most people don’t believe that.
            So, do we get to vote on whether our God exists?
            You are liar and a fool.

          22. History shows? I beg to differ. Your history is quite skewed to say the least.

            This is a JEWISH story, not a Gentile story. The Jews are looking for their savior, and that false savior is the anti-Christ…A JEW.

            When did a Jew enter the Temple in 70 AD proclaiming to be God?

            What I find amusing is all of the eschatology people are claiming ROME, due to Catholicism, and it’s more like ANTI-CATHOLIC teaching than it is JEW teaching. It’s got nothing to do with Rome. NATTA! Nilch, None, Zero.

            Ed Chapman

          23. How do you KNOW one didn’t? You don’t bother to read anything but the KJV, so common sense says you can NOT know anything after 1611.

          24. How do I know one didn’t? Because we are STILL HERE, that’s why.

            The Jews came back to Israel in 1948, that’s why.

            This is all centered on the Jews, and prophesy foretold that Jews would indeed RETURN to Israel.

            70 Weeks of Daniel, is about the Jews, not the world.

            Come on, man! Get to know the, you know, the thing!

            Ed Chapman

          25. 1. The Jews never left Israel. They were judged in 70 AD and dispersed around the world, but there always were a remnant in Israel.
            2. The 70 weeks are over. There is NO “gap” in the counting. Try reading the WHOLE book of Daniel and the rest of the Bible. There are no “gaps” in any numerical passages.
            3. I probably knew the “thing” before you were born. I studied about the thing, even taught the thing, but then I actually studied history and found out the “thing” was made up around 1900 AD. Then I started to see that the “thing” has a LONG, long history of FAILED predictions. “The Day and the Hour” is over 300 pages of all those failed predictions. That is what studying something other than the Bible allows you to learn.
            Maybe you should try studying the “other thing”.

          26. Why are you so quick to dismiss the Jews from the MAJOR narrative in all this? Who do you think the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION SPOKEN BY DANIEL THE PROPHET is/was? Some Gentile from Rome?

            That’s your anti-Christ? NO ONE in the whole world is looking for a Messiah except for the Jews! NO ONE.

            And you dismiss that?

            Ed Chapman

          27. I am not “quick to dismiss the Jews from the MAJOR narrative in all this”.
            The Jews that rejected their Messiah circa 30 AD ARE what all “this” is about.
            And it was the Jews that were judged in 70 AD.
            I dismiss your uninformed interpretation of the Bible.

          28. Matthew 24:29 (SEAL NUMBER 6)
            Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
            ———————————-
            Verse 31 is the RAPTURE.
            ———————————–

            Mark 13:24-25 (SEAL NUMBER 6)
            But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
            ———————————–
            Verse 27 is the RAPTURE
            ———————————-

            Luke 21:25-26 (SEAL NUMBER 6)
            And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

            Luke missed the rapture discussion.

            Peter:

            Acts 2:16-20 (Seal Number 6)
            16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

            17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

            18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

            19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

            20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

            Revelation 6:6-14 (SEAL NUMBER 6)
            12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

            13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

            14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

            Joel:

            Joel 2:10 (Seal Number 6)
            The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

            Joel 2:31 (Seal Number 6)
            The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

            Joel 3:15 (Seal Number 6)
            The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

            ————————————–

            Now, are you REALLY trying to tell me that there is historical evidence that this seal number 6 actually took place?

            I don’t buy that, not even with your dollar!

            Ed Chapman

          29. There is NO “rapture” in scripture. That is a made up concept just as you obsession with the Sixth Seal is a fantasy that will never come to pass in the future.

          30. Yes, there is rapture in scripture:

            Revelation chapter 7 verse 9 is the rapture.

            This is backed up by all of the scritpures that you reject, including, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27,

            Now, there are SEVERAL verses that state the 2 words CAUGHT UP. The ONE GREEK WORD, harpazo, definition is “TO SEIZE”.

            Rapture definition is: TO SEIZE.

            Yes, rapture is in the bible.

            Several verses with “CAUGHT UP”:

            2 Corinthians 12:2
            I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

            2 Corinthians 12:4
            How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

            1 Thessalonians 4:17
            Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

            TO SEIZE, BUDDY! RAPTURE! It’s there!

          31. Sorry Charlie, you are projecting someone else’s conclusions onto scripture.
            The good news is that prophecy has been fulfilled verifying the Bible and that Jesus is now ruling the earth.
            The bad news is you aren’t getting swept up out of this mess. It is the job of Christians to do their best to clean it up through evangelism and discipleship.

          32. It’s a sad shame that you think that I need to learn HISTORY and archeology to understand. That’s like saying I need to learn how to build a boat before i understand Noah’s Ark. Which, by the way, is a PROPHESY of the rapture! Jesus is the Ark…as the days of Noah were…There was an ark ABOVE THE EARTH, while destruction was happening below!

            I’ve read and studied the Bible, and if the Bible is NOT SUFFICIENT then woe is me! I put my trust in the WORD OF GOD, which is Jesus, which is God.

            Ed

          33. Ok. I’ll follow Jesus’ instruction and shake the dust off my sandals as I leave this interaction.
            I can fix ignorance, but stupid I can’t.

          34. Nice…calling me stupid. I called the Catholics stupid. I wouldn’t do that to a PROTESTANT tho. Well, except fo the Calvinists! Good Day, Sir!

            Ed

          35. Sorry, the term doesn’t apply to me since I am intelligent and have common sense.

          36. Ahhh…I received good grades in English Comp while in school, which makes me smarter than the average cemetary grad!

            Look, all ya gotta do is BREAK IT DOWN in little sections and go from there.

            Seal #1
            Seal #2
            Seal #3
            Seal #4
            Seal #5
            Seal #6

            Jesus mentions ALL OF THOSE, just not by name. We all go thru all of those. Then when you get down to #5, the question and answer, HOW LONG? Not Now, wait…much much much later in the book of Revelation it SPECIFIES exactly when #5 actually is NO LONGER a wait.

            Then compare the Revelations explaination of Seal #6 with Peter and Joel and the DETAILS of what Jesus said about it in ALL of the GOSPELS, not just one gospel, or two gospels, but all of them. Why? Because EACH witness (gospel) leaves SOMETHING out, where the other (gospel) picks up on it.

            And you will FINALLY discover that a Temple MUST BE BUILT in order to accomplish what Jesus said, point blank.

            Concentrate on the 6th seal in your investigation. Detail by detail.

            However, Seal Number 5…when Jesus said “wait”, find out when there is no more wait! It’s clearly noted in the book of Revelation. If I’m not mistaken, it’s in the 7th Seal. I’m NOT MISTAKEN!

            No one has gone thru the 7th Seal. In addition, no one has gone thru seals 1 thru 6, either, YET.

            We ain’t even close!

            Ed

          37. Good grades are meaningless. And I know a fair number of seminary graduates and they ALL have more common sense than you.

            Since I’ve heard all this malarky before and rejected it, and you are unwilling to learn about anything, I believe this discussion is at an end.

            Maybe I’ll see you in Heavan and we will see who is right.

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