Theologically Sound. Culturally Relevant.

Lauren Chen Andrew Wilson

Lauren Chen vs Andrew Wilson On Getting Marriage Wrong

The Manosphere has been a persistent force among disillusioned men, pointing out how feminism has led to the degradation of society and the ability for people to find marriageable mates. However, the prescribed solutions for the Manosphere have often come at odds with biblical teaching. Whereas the Manosphere advocates that men adapt to feminism, the Bible teaches the forgiving power of Christ. Another major disagreement is the value of marriage.

On this subject, Lauren Chen and Andrew Wilson had a debate. However, on the subjhect of marriage, neither one of them has a biblical viewpoint.

Should Non-Christians Get Married?

Andrew Wilson argues that they should not. Lauren Chen begins the discussion by arguing in favor of getting married. She clumsily lists having children as a reason to get married to which Wilson scoffs at the notion of non-Christians having children.

The way that God wants us to live leads to a more fulfilling life. We often make fun of women who discovered themselves in their twenties only to become “cat ladies” in their thirties and forties or men who peaked early in life only to become lonely later in life. It is not good for man to be alone. Thus marriage is an ordered desire that should be pursued.

Are Non-Christian Marriages Valid?

Lauren Chen’s argument completely flounders when she concedes that marriages between non-Christians are invalid. Andrew Wilson then taunts her about therefore advocating for people to sin. Andrew Wilson believes that marriage outside of Christianity is sinful. His argument applies the sacremental view of marriage to the exclusion of marriage to the exclusion of marriages outside the church.

However, the Christian understanding of the sacramental view of how marriage points to Christ and also the Trinity does not invalidate non-Christian marriages. There is no such thing as a secular versus faith marriage before God, only marriage. Christians have the sacramental effect of their marriages pointing to Christ and the sanctification that marriage certainly leads to. But their marriages are not the only valid ones. Such notion is common but logically absurd and unfounded in Scripture. Even Jezebel and Ahab, though sexual degenerates, had a valid marriage.

The only instance of marriage being a sin is when a believer unequally yokes themselves to an unbeliever. But even those marriages are valid.

Sphere Sovereignty

What many Christians do not understand is that the family is a distinct sphere of authority from the government and from the church. Marriage belongs to the family. Marriage interacts with the state which does have a role to play in documenting it and governing based on the implications of marriage where they arise ie inheritance laws. The church interacts with marriage, largely bearing witness to the creation of the union. But it is the sphere of family where marriage belongs as God gave man marriage before the government or church.

But just because a marriage is secular does not make it invalid. Just like when a government is secular, this government does not become invalid. Both civil government and marriage are ideally rooted in the Christian faith. However, a lack of faith does not invalidate God’s established institutions.

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9 Responses

  1. Good to see the focus on scripture. That is how we should be.

    One correction is that, according to passages such as 1 Cor. 7, it is not necessarily sinful to be unequally yoked. I guess it would depend on how and why you were unequally yoked, whether or not any other sins were involved and so on.

    I’d also draw attention to verses 32-35 of that chapter, and admonish that we be careful not to foster anxiety concerning whether or not to marry, but to focus first on undivided devotion to the Lord.

    I can remember as a young man, other men, uncles, my grandfather, men of the church, constantly asking me when I was going to get married. And it was frustrating because you know it wasn’t all entirely up to me, right. I’d say, well I guess whenever I find a good girl who doesn’t dump me. My high-school sweetheart, for example, dumped me several times because her parents didn’t like me. Why? Well because I was “fundamentalist”. But I didn’t find out what was going on until she told me many years later. Otherwise, I would’ve told her no the first time she called back wanting to give it another try.

    If you recognize the fact that pickings are slim these days, that godly men and women are few and far between, which is certainly true, then don’t also pressure men and women to marry. It’s good to marry. Marriage certainly is good. It is God’s design. But be sure that you do not foster anxiety.

    1. Not a correction, but rather a clarification. Intentionally and knowingly yoking oneself with an unbeliever would indeed be sinful. But being unequally yoked is not sinful, in and of itself. It depends. As least as I understand the scriptures.

    2. I’m in a similar boat. But the type of women that want me are those who are either in their 40s or those who have kids and this isn’t the 1800s where a woman with kids but no man in her life most likely means that the father is 6 feet under, from 1950s to current women who have kids with no father in their lives most likely means that either they are divorced or had kids out of wedlock.

      The one of the few ways a man could probably get married to a Godly woman is to go to a “fundamentalist” Christian college and get some kind of religious degree.

      1. Absolutely. A good church is about the only place you’re going to find her.

        But I wan’t the young men to not be anxious. I’m older gen X. Never married. An old virgin. I’ve been there, and I know what it’s like. I want to encourage you.

        I take care of my sister and her children and grandchild. I take care of my parents. With my father’s waning health, I’m more or less the head of the household. And I have a very fulfilled life. I’m right where I should be doing exactly what He wants me to be doing.

        God will do with us what He wills in His time.

        I can look back and see how it might’ve gone differently if I’d focused first on devotion to the Lord. Then I might’ve been more ready for marriage. It’s all ultimately up to the Lord. But my advice would be to devote yourself to the Lord and to honoring Him and His word, so that when that good girl does come along, you are like the man she’s looking for.

      2. The world is going to try to compel you to be less “fundamentalist”, and to convince you that is the answer.

        Don’t fall for it. I did to some degree, and that was a mistake. Don’t give them what they want, because I’m here to tell you they’ll still reject you anyhow. Do the opposite. Respond by devoting yourself even more to the Lord.

      3. According to Barna, as of 2023 only 4% of Americans have a biblical worldview. Even among professing Christians, it’s around 17%.

        Then you have to consider how many of that 4% are single women, around your age, compatible with you, and so on. The odds are between slim and none. Probably several thousand to one, if not slimmer.

        And that’s the truth, which we all need to recognize and come to terms with. You might indeed remain unmarried. And those who are married should consider themselves extremely blessed.

        We’re in a post-Christian society the same way the apostles were in a pre-Christian society. As it was when Paul wrote 1 Cor. 7.

        I didn’t completely and clearly read your post this morning, as I was running late. I’d say given the behavior of young people at various colleges, such as Liberty, for example, your odds are no better there than they are anywhere else, and possibly could be worse.

        If you’re young, then certainly don’t give up. But don’t get over anxious about it either. Recognize these days there’s a good possibility you may remain unmarried, and that is ok. It’s all up to the Lord. Ignore the Pharisaical talking heads who go around acting like there’s a mandate that you must marry. That is not in scripture. They’re leaning on their own understanding, strategizing contrary to scripture, trying to win the culture wars by sheer numbers., according to what they think will work as opposed to what God says to do, and which actually does work.

      4. As alluded, I went through a time in my early thirties were I had that anxiety about getting married. I joined dating sites and all that stuff. Relaxed standards for myself and girls I dated. Before all was said and done, I was looking at porn and all sorts of stuff I shouldn’t have been doing. Ads would pop up, and I’d follow them. Next thing you know, I’m looking at it. I was anxious about not being a loser, not wanting to end up dying alone, and so on, then the desires start kicking in, and the next thing you know you’re looking at porn. That lasted about 2 or 3 months, before my conscience wouldn’t allow it anymore. I closed all the accounts, swore off of dating, resigned myself to bachelorhood, and that’s the last time I ever tried to date. My main desire was to marry, have the American dream and all that. But I quickly got way off track. You start thinking, well I guess I’m going to have to be like everybody else if I’m ever going to get married. You start rationalizing it, and such.

        If you go that route, you’re going to attract the wrong sort of woman, and you’re also going to hit a wall sooner or later where your conscience will no longer allow you to continue down that sinful path. God won’t allow it to continue. So don’t do it.

        The point is that those who are pressuring young men and women to marry, as if there is some sort of mandate when there isn’t, need to understand where that anxiety/anxiousness, which Paul spoke about in 1 Cor. 7, could possibly lead. It can cause the very problems they think they’re trying to avoid. Pushing people and fostering that anxiety won’t fix the rampant sexual immorality. It will foment more of it.

        The way we should deal with it is the same way the Apostles dealt with it. Nothing good comes from pressuring people, and doing so is to inevitably put oneself in God’s place. It’s ultimately up to Him.

    3. That’s an interesting chapter in that Paul starts out by making the point that it is good to encourage and promote marriage, in context considering all the rampant sexual immorality that was going on in the roman empire.

      Then he makes the point that it’s probably better not to marry.

      Then the overall point, that the main thing is devotion to the Lord, and to not be anxious about whether or not to marry.

      Of course, if you’re too anxious about it, that can harm your chances also. A girl also once dumped me because of that.

      It’s hard. I know. Many men who are married don’t know how blessed they are to have found a good wife.

      Just don’t foster anxiety. Don’t talk too much about it. And don’t focus on it from the perspective of making more babies to try to outnumber the other guys, like our aim is some sort of totalitarian conquest. Encouraging it for the wrong reasons can be sinful. We’re supposed to be winning hearts and minds for the Lord.

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